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Nicole Byer and Sasheer Zamata love being best friends, which means they also love traveling together. Lale catches up with the two comedians, whose respective television appearance include Nailed It and Loosely, Exactly Nicole, and Saturday Night Live, Woke, and Home Economics, to find out more about how they vacation together. Plus, Nicole and Sasheer field questions from Condé Nast Traveler editors about how to navigate the challenges of traveling with friends.
Lale Arikoglu: Hello, I'm Lale Arikoglu and welcome to another episode of Women Who Travel. Not that long ago, I went away with my best friend to Sweden and we mostly, just, puttered around the city eating fantastic food and spending too munch money on Scandinavian fashion brands. And we also, like, all best friends do, reverted back to the comfort of our usual dynamic, which for us was formed at 11 years old. It was a reminder that, even though we live on different continents, with jobs and adult responsibilities, she has a baby, there's nothing quite as fun as traveling together because we just, well, we get each other.
Which is, why, today, I'm talking to the co-host of a podcast called Best Friends. That actor, writer and comedians, Nicole Byer and Sasheer Zamata.
Nicole Byer: We do our podcast together and we talk on the phone a lot. So, we do interact so much, when we're apart. But like, being together... Like, we just went to Vegas and we were together for, like, three full days, no real breaks. And it was like, this was so nice.
LA: Nicole Byer has hosted and starred in many TV shows, most notably, her own sitcom, Loosely Exactly Nicole and the Netflix reality comedy Nailed It.
NB: Friendship was immediate. [laughs].
Sasheer Zamata: Yeah. I would say the travels probably strengthened friendship.
NB: So I think we were friends before we started traveling. I think there was, um, just like an understanding that, we like each other. So, we, we like hanging out and this is fun.
SZ: We started doing improv together, so we would tours.
NB: Like, we would do different festivals and performances in cities. So, yeah, kind of, since the beginning of our friendship, we've been traveling.
LA: Nicole's best friend, Sasheer Zamata, is an alum of SNL, and had a starring role on ABC's Economics, Hulu's comedy series Woke, and the movie The Weekend.
SZ: We're both so busy and sometimes not in the same city. Like, I was just in Georgia for six months and Nicole was in Los Angeles, and, and that happens. But, it's nice when we have moments to ourself. And I feel like, traveling is the best way for us to do that, because we were in LA at the same time. We do hangout, but sometimes it's like, we're still busy. Or like, we have to run into a show right after we're hanging out, or do a different thing. But, it's nice to have an isolated time, where it's like, it's just the two of us, we're in this place and we just get to enjoy each other for this weekend or week, or however long we're there.
LA: And all, all the kind of, like, loudness and nonsense of life, washes away temporarily.
SZ: Mm-hmm.
NB: Mm-hmm.
LA: I guess you can, kind of, for-... At least, I find this traveling with my, my best friend, like, even if it's just for a few days, all that stuff, kind of, just, goes into the background and you get to, just concentrate on each other and fall back into a dynamic, that was a, sort of, foundation of the friendship.
SZ: Yeah.
NB: You learn about people, when they travel and you also learn if you're, like, good travelers together. So, I think we found out pretty quickly, that we are able to like, blend into each other's vibe, really well.
LA: So, tell me about those vibes. Or, at least tell me about the other's vibe. What's that travel dynamic like?
NB: Sasheer's down to clown. She's down for, truly, any adventure. She's not a water baby, like me, but she will get in water. She will go to a waterfall, if I ask her nicely. Um, Sasheer gets up earlier than me, but is fully okay, going to get breakfast or like, d- yoga, or like, doing something in the morning and then coming back, and them, I'm like, no-
LA: [laughs].
NB: ... time to wake up.
LA: [laughs].
NB: And I like, being, like... Oh wait, you have to do me.
SZ: Oh, yes. Um, Nicole is really, really good at thinking of like, fun ideas for us to do when we travel. She's like, I saw this, you know, kitschy bar that we should go to. Or I saw this, uh, thing with animals, or this thing with cars. Or like, she's good at finding things for us to do. Uh, she does like to sleep in, late. But also, that extends into the night, where she can party all night. We went to Vegas over the weekend and I surprised Nicole, by taking her to the Flamingo Resort. And I was like, there's a surprising happening and she's like, am I gonna see flamingos? And I was like, “yeah.”
And then, and then we went to their wildlife habitat, which is two ponds.
NB: And it's a, truly, a nasty little sink.
LA: [laughs]. Sasheer, what did you want to do in Vegas?
NB: We got massages. That's a Sasheer, eccentric thing.
SZ: Yes, I do love a spa day. I love a massage.
NB: She loves... And I'm trying to get into them. I think I like them, but sometimes, they're so... they, they really try to hurt you. [laughs].
SZ: Hm. [laughs].
NB: I said to Sasheer, I was like, I'm really bruised. She just did it really hard. [laughs].
LA: It's like, it's supposed to be, uh, a nice experience.
NB: Yeah, not like, rough. If you don't want that. It was nice, but it was, it was a little... Her hands were so firm. But then I think there were stones in her hands. But I don't know, because m- my eyes are covered. [laughs]. I don't want to ask questions when someone's doing a service for me.
SZ: Yeah, this is true. Nicole, for some reason, she'll like, [laughs], be super assertive when we're traveling or like, tell people to get out of her way, when we're going on the plane. But then, when it comes to customer service, she just, for some reason, cannot get the courage to say: “Can this stop?”
LA: I've got a few questions for you, from editors at Conde Nast Traveler-
NB: [laughs].
LA: We're looking for advice on how to travel with a friend or friends.
NB: Mm-hmm.
LA: This first question, came from our Social Media Director, Mercedes Bleth, who is very involved in this podcast and is all over it. And I know, is excited about this episode. And one of her questions was, how do you carve out alone time, uh, or time apart from each other on a trip, in a way that doesn't feel hostile?
SZ: Mm. I mean, we're so close and have traveled so much-
NB: Mm-hmm.
SZ: I feel like it'd be very easy for us, to be like, hey, I just need a, I need a, an hour to myself, or whatever. I'm just gonna do this real quick, by myself. But, if you're not there yet, in your friendship, um... I don't know.
NB Yeah. Like, we... I do, like sleeping in. She wakes up earlier. So like, that's good alone time, if you're just up before your friend. Um, I know at like, sleepovers, sometimes I would wake up early and I would pretend to keep sleeping, ca- and wait for like, the other girls to wake up. But like, I'm an adult, y- I don't have to do that. You can, like, go off and do things... Grant it, we went to Italy and I did wake up before her, multiple days, and I would just stare at her until she woke up.
SZ: That's, [laughs]-
NB: Which is insane. I should have taken the time to do anything else. That's a good one. And then, I do think, Sasheer, I think you're right. I think you just be, like, “Oh, hey, I just need, like an hour to myself. Uh, I'm having a great time, but I just, I just need some alone time.”
SZ: Yeah. You could also build it into the schedule, before you even go on the trip.
NB: Ooh, yeah.
SZ: Like, if you like, have a morning activity, or like, we're gonna go get brunch, we're gonna go to this museum. And then, there's like, a couple hours, where, it's like, flexible. We can do something together, or we can do something apart. And then, we like, definitely have something in the afternoon, or something like that.
LA: You went on a trip, somewhat recently, that you've spoken about a little bit, uh, to the Bahamas.
NB: Hm.
SZ: Yes, so we did go to the Bahamas.
NB: [laughs].
LA: You respond with a little trepidation. [laughs].
NB: Yeah-
SZ: Yeah.
NB: We went to the Bahamas and I talked about it on Jimmy Kimmel. Then, the whole island nation decided to band together, to hate me, um, because I didn't have a good time. And apparently, that is my fault and not the islands.
SZ: Mm-hmm.
NB: And I respect that approach.
SZ: [laughs].
NB: I love that. [laughs]. It's like, I love where I live, so much, it's fucking you.
SZ: I feel like, uh-
NB: It's not me.
SZ: Well-
NB: It's not us.
SZ: [laughs].
NB: It's you. And I say, all right. It's me. Um, yeah, we rented an Airbnb that was half-finished and just disgusting. And we had a hard time getting a hotel, because it was New Years. But then our friend Christy's fiance's best friend's cousin. [laughing] had a hook-up at the Comfort Suites.
SZ: [laughs].
NB: And I said, Comfort Inn, on Kimmel, and people came for me. And they're like, there is no Comfort Inn, it's the Comfort Suites. And I'm like, guess what, it's all the same, mediocre. And we stayed there, it was clean, it was nice. And then we moved to Margaritaville and, you know, things happened every single day. I ran out of gas on a jet ski, in the middle of the ocean. It was a, it was really, a stressful. Ah, every single thing was stressful. [laughs].
LA: Sasheer—what was your experience? Because it sounds like you didn't run out of gas on your jet ski. Did you like it in another ways?
SZ: I mean-
NB: She cursed me. She, she said-
SZ: [laughs].
NB: You said before we went out, you're like, what if we run out of gas. And I was like, that'll never happen. [laughing].
SZ: Yeah.
NB: And then, cut to me bobbing along. [laughs].
SZ: And then I had to go back to shore by myself. And I was like, “Should I leave?” And she was like, “You have to go.” Like, something has to happen. We can't just both, be out here.
Nicole Byer: [laughing].
SZ: And I was like, okay. And then it's like, like sadly, went back to shore and kept looking back, to make sure my friend didn't, just like, drift off into the ocean.
LA: Wait, Nicole, what was going through your head? Did you just like, bopped around in the ocean alone? Sasheer disappearing into the distance.
NB: I, at first, didn't realize how far out we were. And, she just kept going and going, and going, and becoming smaller and smaller. And I was like, what if she doesn't come back? What if-
nobody, nobody comes to save me.
SZ: [laughing].
NB: And then, she's gone for a really long time, because that's how far out we were. And I was like, what if, what if a sea creature comes to eat me? But then, I'm delusional. I was like, I'll make friends with it and it won't eat me. And maybe I'll ride that back to shore.
LA: That's how it works.
SZ: Yeah. Honestly, thank God it was before all the Orcas and sharks started, uh, unionizing-
NB: I mean, truly. [laughing]. Truly.
LA: But you did, you didn't swim with... Technically, you didn't swim with sea creatures, but you did swim with pigs, right?
NB: Okay, we didn't go to Exuma.
LA: Okay.
NB: Exuma is the famous Pig Beach. We went to Harbour Island. And, Harbour Island, they don't really swim. You give 'em chicken hot dogs and they follow you into the water and will be forced to swim, if, if need be, to get to the chicken sausage. [laughs]. Um, but, yeah, we didn't swim with them. And then, I loved it, until I saw one, just like, shitting in the ocean. And I was like, I think it's time for us to go. I was very happy I was wearing my adventure water shoes. [laughs]. But I did cry, upon seeing them. I love pigs so much. And then, there was also ducks. I love ducks. [laughs]. The older I get, the more emotional I get about animals. And I can't explain it.
SZ: I, personally wouldn't have chose to go, see the pigs. But I was like, Nicole's gonna lose her mind, and I want to see that. [laughs]. So, so I am so happy that we're doing that. [laughs].
LA: How do you soundtrack your trips?
NB: Mm, Sasheer has a good playlist, that a nice person made for her. And that's, that's, it's like, vibey and it's chill, and it's always got like, weird bands I've never heard of, of like, like John and the, the Drum Trucks. [laughing]. They always have like, w- weird names. [laughs].
LA: Sasheer, do you know who John and the Drum Trucks actually is?
SZ: I mean, maybe she's talking about, Drive-by Truckers.
NB: [laughs]. My funniest burn is like, I always get kind of close to something-for you, [laughing], [inaudible 00:12:02]. [laughs]. Um, I was like, in a Frank Ocean movie, the last time we went somewhere. So we're listening to that. But like, I think we're like, low-key.
LA: Coming up, a trip to Costa Rica.
NB: We went to Costa Rica, and there was a zip line. And I said, what is the weight limit on this zip line? And that man looked at me and he said, I don't know, I think you should be good. And I said, then I'm not doing it. If you don't have a clear answer for me, [laughs]... I've never seen anyone as big as me on it. Like, I'm not doing it.
So I rode around with them, and then there was a big tall man. He was big. He was like, solid. He was like a, I don't know, like a basketball player or something. But, uh, he went through this, of one, and then he got stuck halfway through. And I, [laughs], and was like, I made a good choice.
SZ: Mm-hmm. Yes.
NB: And that's humiliating. [laughs].
LA: Aha, [laughs]. That is-
NB: He was laughing, but they had to figure out how to go get him. So I, I'll go to things and then maybe, opt out, of doing it. But I'll go watch you do it.
SZ: Yeah, same.
LA: Oh my God, just so, so sorry for that man that got, the-
NB: [laughs].
SZ: It was okay, everyone was laughing at him. It was very funny. Just like, his butt, lightly dipping in the water.
LA: Nicole, at least when you're on the jet ski with no gas, no one could see you, 'cause you were out to sea.
NB: Yeah. I was just lost at sea.
LA: [laughs]. Okay, onto... And actually, um, this is kind of a good segue to Mercedes' other question, which was, how do you... Or, should you, even try and inspire a friend who isn't adventurous, into doing something new? And I like this question, because I'm a bit of a scaredy-cat. Like, I don't like heights and I hate things that go very fast.
SZ: Yeah. I'm also, kind of a scaredy-cat.
NB: What? You had adventures this year.
SZ: I do adventure.
NB: You've been on jet skis.
SZ: Yeah. [laughs].
NB: You've been on go-karts.
SZ: I didn't get on a, in a fast car, like you did. Like, I'm not gonna drive a Ferrari, or do the like, drifting experience. That, scares me.
NB: Oh, I gotta get back and do that.
LA: Wait, drifting, as in Fast and Furious?
NB: Yeah, so they have a Hellcat, and they drift it for you and you just sit in the back seat. And they get so close to the, like, little dividers and stuff. It's real wild. It looks like so much fun.
LA: Wait. And drifting, 'cause I said that, like I knew what it was. And literally, because I was just thinking of the film title.
NB: Drifting is, you cut the wheel hard, so your front tires go to where your wheel is, and then your back tires skid, to where the front of the car is going, until you make, like a circle. And you, like, like, kinda glide.
LA: That is terrifying.
SZ: Yes.
NB: Yeah. [laughs].
LA: I'm so impressed. [laughs].
NB: They're like, you cannot do it, because it's hard to control doing it. But you can ride along with someone who does it. So like, Sasheer came along and was like, I'll watch. I think that's a good friend thing. And then also, if a friend says, no, I think twice, I think you let it go, and then pivot to, would you mind watching me do it. Or, I'll, I'll go do it alone. Yeah, I don't think you should force anyone.
SZ: You don't need to force anyone. And hopefully, this friends fear doesn't like, end the activity. Like, hopefully, it's not like-Oh, we have to go back to the hotel now. [laughs].
LA: And then, that's on that friend. You know, you kinda hope that there's like a, a balance, where they're like, I appreciate that you aren't going to peer pressure me into doing this thing. But I'm not gonna make you miss out on anything.
SZ: Exactly, there should be some compromise.
NB: Well that was like, in Mexico, you went up those Aztec stairs to Heaven and I said, I simply will not. Uh, 'Cause they were like, it's pretty steep. And I was like, I fall very easily. Um, so I just like, sat and made friends with a family, and Sasheer went up to Heaven. [laughs]. Um, but, [laughing], I think there's something to, just being down, to like, wait.
Like, experience as much as you like, but like, this is my boundary and I'm happy to watch you do something. I took pictures of her on those stairs. I waved goodbye, [laughing], said have fun in Heaven. And I waited for her to get back. I think the friend who doesn't want to do something, I think it's more on them, to be like, happy to be a cheerleader, happy to sit. Um, but I don't... This is not for me. 'Cause it's like, you didn't need me to climb stairs. And you took nice pictures.
SZ: And there's always a, a need for someone to take pictures. It's, the person who's sitting out, is now the photographer. So-
LA: I had a, it felt like a very freeing moment, when I finally, just accepted that I really hated roller-coasters. I spent my entire childhood and adolescence of forcing myself to go on these rides, that, like, made me feel like was going to, like, at the very baseline, shit myself. Or, you know, or fly out of the thing and meet my demise. I was like, wait, I just don't have to do it. And I can sit at the bottom, while my friends have a good time, and just like, eat some french fries.
SZ: Exactly.
NB: Yeah. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. Because you get to watch all the stuff. You are valuable.
LA: What is your feel about picky eaters?
NB: I am a picky eater. I'm very, very picky. I do not eat everything. We went to this super fancy restaurant that I loved. But the appetizer was something akin to deviled eggs. And I'm not a deviled egg girl. I don't like mustard. So I just cut up the food and pretended, like I had eaten some of it. Again, I don't know. I don't think anyone was offended that I didn't like it. [laughs].
But yeah, I mean, I will go anywhere and I will find something on the menu that I like. And I think picky eaters have to do that. I think... Especially, if the restaurant does substitutions. Just like, you know, figure out something like, take something out. Sound like a child.
LA: [laughs]. Sasheer, what about you?
SZ: Um, I'll eat more than Nicole, but I, also, sometimes I'm like, uh, I don't want that. But, I will try it. Yeah. I, I mostly, just like to eat really tasty food and be full.
LA: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you want to eat something delicious.
NB: [laughs]. You introduced lamb to me, Sasheer. Did you know that?
SZ: I don't think, I did know that.
NB: I had never had lamb before, until I tasted lamb off your plate.
SZ: I'm so glad.
LA: My, a former co-host on this podcast, who had trouble with a lot. Meredith Carey, she is quite a picky eater, self-proclaimed. She doesn't like eggs. So those deviled egg would have not been an option for her. She doesn't like potatoes. She doesn't like bananas. It's a lot of yellow food, really. Um, but also food that appears everywhere. But we have traveled so much together, and have eaten so many dinners. And we also have a great time. I feel like, there's always something this person can eat. And if not, then it's like, all right, well let's try to find a snack, after we leave, [laughs], the restaurant.
NB: That's so wild that your friend doesn't like a potato. It's one of the most versatile vegetables.
LA: Well, I know, that's what I say. I'm like, mashed, roasted, french fries. The options are endless-
NB: Yes. Tater tots.
SZ: Potato chips.
NB: Hashbrowns-
LA: Have you traveled with other friends, and suddenly you've been like, oh, it's not quite the same?
SZ: [laughs]. We have tried to add people to the mix, and it's really hard. It's, [laughs]-
NB: Uh-huh. Yeah, 'cause-
SZ: I think it was hard, because we have just been doing it for so long.
NB: Yeah. And, we don't have to talk. It's like, do you want to do this? Yes. You want to do that? No. Okay, I'm gonna go do this. Oh great, I'll do this. And it's very easy. And then, sometimes you'll go out with people, and they're like, I don't want to do that. What do you mean? Or it's like let's do this dumb shit. And you're like, wait, why would you want to do that? [laughing].
LA: Coming up, a giraffe hotel in Kenya.
Question that came from a few different people, and has definitely been something that I experience as, someone who works in media and has friends who earn, considerably, more than I do, who I have traveled with. And, it, where you always end off on different budgets. But, the vision for the vacation, often gets, sort of, determined by the people who are earning more.
How have you both, with each other, and with other friends that you've traveled with, navigated different budgets.
SZ: Something I've seen Nicole do, is if we are staying at an Airbnb with a group of people, or like, staying at a resort or something, if it's like, fancy or more expensive because Nicole, or Nicole and I want to stay at a nicer place, but our friends can't afford it-
LA: Yeah.
SZ: Then, like we'll, like, balance out the payment for it. Because it's like, well we wanted to be here. So-
NB: Mm-hmm.
LA: You did that Airbnb in the Bahamas. That was slumming it-
NB: Are you good? [laughing]. That was, truly, slumming it.
SZ: For not slumming, at prices. [laughs].
NB: It was so expensive, and so not, finished. And there was just stains everywhere, covering the headboard. It was so gross. But yeah, if I'm organizing, I'll just be, be straight up. I'll be like, it is a little expensive, but it's the place I want. Uh, I like it, if you guys like it, I'll book it, and then, pay, pay me what you want. And it's never... No one has any, like, no one has ever been like, here's $10.
Um, but yeah, I, I think it's always like a nice conversation to have, if it's like, a bunch of people, to be like, well where would we want to stay, who's willing to share a room? Um, yeah. I think it's, I think it's just, it's, it's easy.
Like, me and my friend Mono, just planned a trip and I said I would like to fly first-class, because, uh, it's what I have become accustomed to. And Mono, was like, I don't want, I don't want to, that's, that's too much. And I was like, okay. And I don't think either of us feel any type of way about it.
LA: Well then, neither of you stressed. 'Cause you're not stressed, 'cause you feel-
NB: Yes.
LA: ... like, you forced him to do something that they weren't comfortable with or didn't have the money for.
NB: Yeah.
LA: And they're not stressed because they're thinking, oh my God I couldn't afford this, and now my credit card bill's gonna be, like, through the roof.
NB And I think it it's just, you have to have that conversation. Also, economy seats are too small for my butt. They don't make things for big-butted people.
SZ: When we went to Vegas. I flew, [laughing], comfort, plus and Nicole's in first, and she was like, please sit next to me. Why, why aren't you sitting next to me? And I was like, 'cause it's a 45-minute flight from, from LA to Vegas and I'd rather, not use all my points, [laughs], to sit in first-class for that short ass flight. [laughs]. We can be apart for 45 minutes, it's okay. We're about to have three days together. [laughs].
NB: She got upgraded on the way back and we still didn't sit next to each other.
LA: I feel like we've solved some problems. We figured out your travel dynamic. My last question is, where are the two of you traveling to next? Or if you haven't gotten anything planned, what are you scheming? Where do you want to go?
NB: Africa. I think that's the next place-
SZ: Yeah.
NB: ... want to go.
SZ: Specifically, to that Kenyan hotel, where giraffes will lean into the windows, what, while eat.
LA: I saw that hotel.
SZ: Yes. [laughs].
LA: I didn't actually stay there, but I did meet the giraffe.
NB: I would like to make friend with the giraffe. You did meet giraffes?
LA: I did meet the giraffes.
NB: Oh my God. There's a giraffe in like, uh, Malibu. I can't remember his name, but I emailed to see if I could meet him. And they were, literally like, he's not accepting any new friends. I was like, who is he, Drake? What's happening?
LA: They're quite... As I was told, when I was going to feed the giraffe snacks, is that they can get a little prickly, if they get bothered by too many people. And, because basically, in Nairobi, there is the giraffe hotel, itself. And then it actually, is attached to a giraffe sanctuary. So if you can't stay at the hotel, although hopefully you both will, then you can also visit the sanctuary and meet the giraffes and feed them these little, kind of, biscuity snacks they let you have... they give you a bunch, you have in your hand and you just, plop them on their tongues. And, giraffes tongues feel as weird as you would imagine they would.
NB: Oh, my gosh, I can't wait.
LA: But there was one who was really, uh, everyone was warned about. And they were like, she, she's a biter.
SZ: Oh!
NB: Oh my God [inaudible 00:24:48]-
LA: Maybe she's had too many friends and she, just like, needed her alone time.
SZ: Yeah. She's like, I don't know you. [laughs].
LA: [laughs]. I've had enough of these biscuits. [laughs]. I don't need anymore. [laughs]. Um, well, Kenya sounds fantastic. Is there anywhere else in the continent, you'd want to go?
NB: We were trying to figure out if we were gonna... I don't think we're gonna do the whole continent. I think we're either, gonna stay like, North, Northeast, or like, Northwest, maybe Central, but like, do, do the top half, I think.
SZ: Yeah. We also need to find a travel agent. 'Cause we-
NB: Yeah, we don't really know how to do it.
SZ: [laughs]. Like, we, we can put together great rips, but also, I do feel like the Bahamas was a, really, strong indicator of like, we need someone else to do this for us. [laughing]. So, uh, researched for things for us to do, places to stay.
NB: There's much to do in a very small circle. But like, Africa, like, we can't wake up one day and be like, let's go to Madagascar! Like, you have to, [laughs], you gotta plan that shit. [laughs].
LA: All right, well taught. But it sounds like, you're hopefully, you've got an amazing trip coming up, that will be free of Airbnbs with stains and, jet, jet skis, without gas. This has been such a treat, and you've made me want to book another trip with my best friend. If people want to follow along, with both of your travels and listen to the podcast, where can I find you?
NB: Uh, the podcast is just called, Best Friends, and it's available wherever you get your podcasts. You can also call and us best friend questions and we'll answer them to the best of our abilities, but we are not professionals, other than professional friends.
SZ: [laughs]. We are professional friends.
NB: [laughs].
LA: Next week, swimming in out of the way, locations like quarries, hidden lakes and sea pools, has long been popular. But during the pandemic more people took up wild swimming and online groups started sharing experiences. We talked to Albert Brumley, whose new book, The Title Year, reflects on the year she spent swimming around the UK. And we talked to Danish writer, Dorthe Nors, who lives on the rugged coast of Jutland, and is a frequent guest on this show. See you then.\
I am Lale Arikoglu and you can find me on Instagram @lalehannah. Our engineers are Jake Lummus and Gabe Quiroga. The shows mixed by Amar Lal. Jude Kampfner from Corporation for Independent Media is our producer. See next week.